Host: Iftikhar Ahmed
Guest: Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman
Zara Sochieye special episode is a link
that attempts to highlight issues that promote
and/or represent imbalance and injustice
in our society and have divided us for years.
* What is the difference
between Zina and Zina-bil-Jibr?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Zina is the act
that has the consent of a woman but if a
woman is coerced or pressurized into this
act, than this is called Zina-bil-Jibr.
* Zina is a sin and for that a man
is answerable to Allah?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Absolutely! A person
is answerable to Allah and to the world
as well. Like a killer, who has to face
not only Allah on the judgment day but also
has to be dealt with according to the laws
of the world.
is against humanity and is a part of the
Fasad fil Arz, do you agree with this?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: This is an act against
the humanity, against morality as well as
a revolt to the laws set down by Allah and
is the gravest of sins.
* If I say Zina is Fasad fil Arz?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Zina-bil-Jibr is
Fasadfe Alarz for sure.
* I am talking about
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Zina-bil-Raza is
also Fasad fil Arz, just like Zina-bil-Raza.
There can be differences in Fasadfe Alarz.
Anything that goes against the laws of Allah
and destroys life, property, emotions and
a human’s respect is Fasaad.
* According to Chapter
2-A of Hudood Ordinance 1979, an adult is
a male who has reached 18 years of age and
a female who is 16 years of age or has reached
the age of puberty is considered an adult.
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: The Islamic Ideology
Council (2001-2004) had a formal debate
on the issue of Zina and proposed amendments
in the Ordinance. One of the points agreed
upon was that 15 years was to be set as
a limit of sexual maturity.
* Why was there
a need to amend it?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Although the laws
have been set by Allah, but we have updated
it suit the present times. Where there was
an ambiguity, we have tried to remove it.
* So you agree that
removing an ambiguity is not un-Islamic?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Absolutely!
* The demand to
remove an ambiguity is not un-Islamic then?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If it’s within
the parameters of Hudood Shariat.
* Are these laws
not created according to Hudood Shariah?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: These are according
to Hudood Shariah.
* If this was created
under the Hudood Shariyah, then why did
no one realized about the ambiguities in
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: When a law is applied
in practice, there can be complexities,
shortcomings. They can always be solved.
The difference in our point of views and
the secular opinion is that we want the
changes to be made with in the Hudood-e-Shariyee.
* If a girl who
is twelve years old and reaches puberty,
is convicted of Zina. If four males give
witness against her, could she be stoned
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: There are two things
here; one is the basic Islamic law that
says that if there is sexual maturity than
the punishment is to be imposed. But since
the law is created, there are parameters
to be set and the punishment will then be
* What’s the
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: According to the
present times, 15 years of age is set as
the limit for puberty. But if you go according
to Shariyat, when sexual maturity is proved,
the punishment is to be given.
* I have a clear
question, will the 12 year old be stoned
to death or not?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If puberty is proved,
age is not the only constraint.
* Whether the girl
is mentally mature or not?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If she is mature,
then the laws of Allah are applicable to
* We tell a 10 year
old to say his prayers, but do parents ever
tell a 10 year old the difference between
Zina and Zina-bil-Jibr?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If he omits the
act of Zina and forces someone into it,
this means that he is mature and knows what
he is doing. The laws have set an age for
* So will the 12
year old girl be stoned to death if 4 males
testify against her?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If you suspend the
legal system then this will happen. If there
is a law that has a set age for puberty,
then the punishment would be given according
* There are certain
things that are prohibited in Islam and
certain things that are allowed. You say
that the Ordinance fits well within the
parameters of Islam.
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: This Ordinance is
within the parameters of Islam. There are
certain ambiguities there though that makes
it difficult to comprehend, the vagueness
can be removed.
* How can one find
the four witnesses or Zina-bil-Jibr?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Through investigation
and through scientific methods and medical
test, rape can be proved. The punishment
will then be given under Tazir and this
is allowed in Sahiryat and law.
* Is Tazir punishment
according to Shariyah?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Shariyat allows
* The laws that
are in Tazir, they are not Islamic as they
do not fall in Hadd?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: They are not Hadd
but if a Muslim ruler implements Tazir,
then that is Islamic law too. In the times
of Khilafat Rashda, and even today, any
law that is not against the Sharia will
be treated as Islamic law. That is why the
IIC has reviewed the laws and proposed for
* The difference
between Hudood and Tazir is that Hudood
Allah are the laws set by Allah while Tazir
are man made laws and keep on being changed
according to times. In the Islamic times,
Tazir was never called the Islamic law.
Isn’t this purely under the legal
framework? Do you agree?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Tazir are made according
to the guidelines prescribed by Allah. The
difference between Hudd and Tazir is that
while Tazir can be updated according to
the times, there can be no compromise on
* Can we create
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: All these laws that
are drafted in the Parliament, if they are
not in conflict with the word of Allah,
can be called as Islamic laws and have to
be followed accordingly.
* So you don’t
see a difference between the laws of Islam
and the laws created by Muslims?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: According to Islam,
any law created by Muslims that does not
contradict with the rules set by Allah,
is to be followed.
* Islam urges us
to follow it but it won’t be the Islamic
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: It would be according
to Islam but will not have Hadd.
* It would be according
to Islam but will not be Islamic?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: The difference between
Hudood and Tazir is that Hudood Allah cannot
be compromised on; they cannot be altered
at all. Another law that is not against
the spirit of Islam is Islamic law and has
to be followed.
* Is it true that
according to the Hudood Ordinance, a woman
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: In the Hudood, Zina-bil-Jibr
does not require testimony that can have
* What is the reason
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: This is Allah’s
law and his decision.
* What ayat would
you quote for this?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: The Quran says “and
four men will testify”.
* But that is for
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Right.
* But where does
it say that a woman cannot testify?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Ummat has done Ijma
on it, in the issue of Hudood…
* Where in the Quran
is it mentioned?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If someone says
that without Quran, there is no Islam, then
in Quran, no where is it mentioned about
praying five times a day and neither is
there the way of performing it. Is Namaz
* Tell me some Hadith
that says that a woman cannot testify in
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Its there in Musnaf
Abn-e-Abee Sheeba and Musnaf Abdul Razaq.
In Musnaf Abn-e-Abee Sheeba, Zehri says
that the Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and the
Khalifas afterwards have continued that
the testimony of women is not important.
* Can four Muslims
come forward and testify for a rape?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If they can’t
come, then the punishment is there too.
As a responsible person, I am saying this.
* You are saying
this as a responsible being but can four
Muslims testify for rape?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Even if they are
not there, the punishment can be imposed
under the Tazir laws.
*How many people
were convicted by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: A man and a woman
were punished for this in the time of the
* Can four people,
who offer prayers, pay Zakat and have an
Islamic lifestyle, watch a woman being raped?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If were there, then
will try and protect.
* When a woman is
raped, and cannot present four witnesses,
she is called the sinner because by lodging
a report she has agreed that Zina has happened.
What do you say about this?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If there is proof
of being forced into it, then she will not
* Some of 50 women
witness a rape, then there won’t be
any convictions as there were no four male
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: People have not
mentally accepted this law since the beginning.
State one example where 50 women witnessed
a rape. Again I say, the punishment would
be under Tazir and they will not be punished
* Isn’t this
discrimination against the woman?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If you and I try
to sort out all the decisions of Allah according
to our perceptions then we can say. But
when we bow down to Him, then its Hukam
* If four witnesses
are needed and the pregnancy of an unmarried
woman is there, will she be convicted of
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: According to the
Fiqah, she will not be punished.
* Is keeping a woman in jail un-Islamic?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Basically we have
issues about the wrong use of this. We have
proposed that the Federal Shariyat Court
be extended in its powers and a qazi be
appointed where the Hudood crimes can be
directly reported rather than lodging a
FIR and having the police manipulate.
* So you agree that
the Hudood Ordinance is not a suitable document?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Hudood Ordinance
is there but we also have the Pakistan Penal
Code, Pakistan Procedural Code, there is
Zabta-eFaujdari and Qanoon-e-Faujdari. The
Zabta-e-Faujdari cannot be changed.
* Who is responsible
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: The ruler of yore
and the ruler today.
* The Ulema joined
in to please the ruler of that time but
now there are problems being created thanks
to the ambiguities in the law. Why aren’t
they being looked into?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: We have been demanding
time and again and this has got nothing
to do with us being pleased. If the law
of Allah is implemented, you say that it
is being done to please us.
* Do you realize
the horrific consequences of implementing
the laws half way through?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Its there in our
constitution and the laws. The failure of
it lies with incapability of the humans
as human implement the law.
* Are there ways
to prove rape other than the witness factor?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: To prove rape, circumstantial
evidence, medical evidence and testimony
are all applicable and can be used.
* Is it necessary
for the witnesses to be pious and religious,
they should not have committed a crime and
have an Islamic lifestyle?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: If he has admitted
to committing a crime and is a Hajji, then
his testimony is acceptable.
* Is Tazkia Alshahood
in need of changes?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Tazkia Alshahood
can be set in vast parameters and the Qazi
can accept a witness according to the prevailing
time. After the satisfaction, he can accept
* Can a non-Muslim
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: In issues pertaining
* How can we implement
these laws on the non-Muslims?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Aren’t the
laws allover the world applicable to Muslims
* There they are
not judged according to religion.
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: We can convict a
non-Muslim according to their laws but if
they are Christians and Jews, then the punishment
is also prescribed as stoning.
* But they will
be dealt according to their laws?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: But according to
that what is stated in the present day Torah.
The Holy Prophet (PBUH)convicted a Jew according
to his religion. In their religion, Rijam
* Is it allowed
in Islam that a non-Muslim be punished according
to the Hudood Ordinance?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: The law of the land
is applicable to all whether it is Pakistan
or the world over.
* If the accused
is a non-Muslim, then the witnesses shall
also be non-Muslims. Non-Muslims are convicted
under the Hudood law when this law is purely
for the Muslims?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Hudood is in the
common law; hence it is applicable with
the condition that the witnesses will be
non-Muslims. Islam does not permit that
on one hand, Muslims are reigned in while
on the other, the non-Muslims are given
a free hand.
* Is there no concept
of providing safety and security to non-Muslims
in Islam? Are they allowed to live according
to their religions?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: There are provided
cover in the Personal Law which gives them
the right to worship and spend their lives
according to their religion. In that particular
sphere, they do not fall under the common
law of the country.
* Is it true that
a person who is unable to provide four witnesses
is labeled a Fasiq and would be lashed 80
times as well as lose the right to testify
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Yes, he/she would
be declared Fasiq. He will be lashed too.
As far the testimony go, Fiqah Hanifi denies
him the right to do, while the other Fiqahs
have allowed for it.
* Is it true that
if someone accepts that he accused someone
to improve the society; he is forgiven and
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: I say that if someone
accuses a respectable woman but cannot prove
it according to the requirements of Shariyaa,
then Hadd-e-Qazuf is to be imposed on him.
* So the punishment
should be according to Hudd?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Tazir is also the
* If Rijam is the
punishment then why stoning is carried out?
Why are the culprits shot dead later?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Rajam means to throw
stones. By casting stones, the process of
sangsaari is initiated while shooting is
simple to ease the pain.
* So Rijam means
that whenever you want, you start throwing
stones and whenever you feel like, you should
shoot? Does Islam say anywhere that start
with stoning and ends with shooting?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Islam says that
the punishment is to be initiated with stoning.
It is stated in Ahadith that stoning should
lead to death. The middle path has been
taken out where by stoning marks the punishments
while to ease the suffering, the person
is shot dead.
* In Rashida Patel
case, the Federal Shariat Court has given
a ruling that allows for a different criterion
for witnesses in the cases of Zina and Zina-bil-Jibr.
According to the judgment, the government
was bound to introduce this amendment within
90 days otherwise it was to become a law
automatically, The then government with
malice, challenged the decision that remains
unattended even after the lapse of almost
15 years. Now this is felt by the federal
Shariat Court and it has stated that the
ambiguities be cleared up,
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: We are not against
the clearing up ambiguities.
* So there should
be a change in the witness procedure for
rape and it should be differentiated from
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Yes, the witness
criteria should be changed. Also, Zina and
Zina-bil-Jibr should be distinguished.
* How many people
have been sentenced under the Hudood Ordinance?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: No one has been
* So one should
believe that in Pakistan, pious people reside
and there are no crimes?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: This only tells
that a crime cannot be proved according
* Should we be happy
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: We should be sad.
* Is the Hudood
Ordinance in line with Quran and Sunnah?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman: Hudood is according
to Quran and Sunnah but the doubts should
be removed. The Hudood laws are completely
in sync with Quran and Sunnah.
* We are not talking
about Hudood. Is the Hudood Ordinance in
line with Quran and Sunnah?
Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman:
Though the Hudood Ordinance has been drafted
by humans, there can be ambiguities and
they can always be corrected.